Dairik Amae on Zen and Practice

I recently had the great privilege of visiting my friend JC and his Zen teacher Dairik in Montreal. After a series of matcha tea ceremonies, delectable Japanese breakfasts, and direct meditative instruction, we three along with my friend Mackenzie proceeded to have a dialogue on the nature of Zen and how Dairik conceives of practice. The transcript of our dialogue is below.

Max 0:09

How would you describe yourself?

Dairik 0:20

Just another tea man.

Max 0:24
Okay. So me, Max, Mackenzie, JC and we’re here with Derek— just another tea man. And we’re going to have a conversation about practice and view. One question that we could begin with is about the reason for meditation. One obvious paradox is: Why do zazen if it’s good for nothing? I have my own answer, but should I say more? Or…

Dairik 1:27
No no, I think that’s fine. Okay. So why do Zazen if it’s good for nothing? I shouldn’t answer a question with a question but I think I’ll ask a question. So why do people fish?

Max 1:40 To eat.

Dairik 1:41 To eat. So in that sense there is a purpose I guess. But some people like fishing just because they want to be alone or kind of you know, they don’t have to catch the fish. They can be on a boat and just enjoy. I guess space out. So to some people around this fisherman, it looks like he’s just doing nothing. Good for nothing.

Max 2:45
Because he catches the fish and throws it back in the ocean.

Dairik 2:48
Or sometimes he doesn’t even catch it but he’s still there. It seems like it’s good for nothing depending on the perspective of the outside person. Or maybe the person, the Fisher, also feels like it’s good for nothing because there’s really no purpose and you just feel. But when you do fishing, you always have to watch the bait. By the way I don’t fish so much. But I’ve gone several times and it’s interesting how if you’re not always cautious of the bait the fishes are smart and they take away the bait. Shouldn’t have been looking at my smartphone. So then you put the bait again on the hook and you throw it in. So this time you watch, you watch, you watch, you watch, you watch and you can see a pull so you pull and then you catch the fish. So for me, Zazen (sitting meditation) is kind of like that, since I don’t know if I’m gonna catch a fish or not that day because the fish is under the surface. We can’t see. We don’t know. We can’t see this thing that we’re trying to touch, but we know it’s there because people who went through say it’s there. But they can’t catch the fish for you. You have to catch it so then they tell you how to fish. That’s basically how to Zazen or meditate. They teach you how to use the tools, they give you the tools, and they say, here, this is needed to catch the fish. So you try different ways and you know, your body hurts, you can’t breathe and so you try different things.

Then you kind of get a hang of it. So you kind of constantly every day do Zazen, and you observe that this ocean is vast. It’s so vast. It’s so vast that you don’t know how deep it is.

But you know, the fish is there. In the beginning, you may catch little ones, and you get the hang of it, like Oh, I’m catching something.

So you feel like this is fun, you know, it’s fun. It’s fun like catching fishes and it’s fun getting into that state. I think initially you forget about the purpose. You just do it because it’s fun. You know, like you said, you do this as well because it’s fun. You enjoy it. Then you start exploring the ocean. You try different parts like near the cliff or near I don’t know. You go far out. You start exploring in this ocean and eventually you find a comfort spot, you know, that’s what fishermen do. They find a nice spot of their own, and I think in Zen meditation, you find your own comfort (zone) and some people stay there because they find that’s enough for them. But some of the curious ones try out the so-called danger zones or the unexplored.

But that’s very uncomfortable because it’s so different. You know, it’s like you just kind of go there and pretty soon you’re just so indulged in this activity that you forget about time and space and you forget to go back to the land and you forget to receive your calls from your family saying, “Hey, when are you going to come back for fishing?” because you’re so indulged in fishing, and you even forget about the questions you had about the purpose or you even forget about this idea of what’s the meaning or if it’s good for nothing, you know, because you’re so indulged in this fishing.

Max 8:48
Yeah, I guess I feel a tension because yesterday JC was talking about Zen being good for other things like operating and there’s a part of me that says how can you say Zen is good for this and that’s fine. But also Zazen is good for nothing.

Dairik 9:19
I think one is to break away from this logical idea because if I tell you Zazen is good for such and such like I say Tea is good for health and it has antioxidant, EGCG, vitamin C, before you even drink it of course, we have the tendency to put a filter or something. So when you drink, you feel the antioxidants, the caffeine, but maybe it’s just green water that looks like Tea. If you call it placebo or whatever. Zen is already a strong word and if I tell you, Oh, we’re gonna be doing Zazen or sitting meditation it will carry so many things like you’re not supposed to think or you have to be empty. I think a lot of audiobooks touch on this, you know, people say you have to be empty when you do meditation but that’s impossible. Anyways, we carry so many of these things. So typically a monk would say, yeah, it’s good for nothing because his aim is at least to erase. So their eraser is basically their eraser. So that erasing is an eraser because he wants to make you super super naked, just skin and bone. Zen is like an eraser.

Max 11:56
So would you say that saying it’s good for nothing is a way of erasing our preconceptions that we bring to the activity? Yeah, it helps, even though the activity may end up being useful for other things. Yeah. And

Dairik 12:07
That’s up to the practitioner. Again, an eraser is a tool as Zen is a tool, so it’s a tool, it’s not a religion, it’s a tool. It’s basically a tool that you can apply. So it’s an application that you can apply to tea or you know, everyday work or art or sitting or reading. It’s a tool that can be implemented with your daily activity. It’s up to the user to find it. I don’t know if you see it beneficial like any application because in one way this application is good for nothing. But if you apply it to another it works really well. So that’s my understanding of Zen. I think it’s an application tool. But when the monk says Zazan is good for nothing, yeah, at least he’s trying to erase preconceptions.

Mackenzie 13:51
When we were at Celine’s, I found it really moving when you’re talking about Zen being in freefall, kind of the evolution of the practice of Zen, and how maybe temples are too stable, and now tea houses are too stable. What was in the context of those really interesting to me, but also, it seems like what I’ve experienced/observed is characterized by this very rigid technique, and a lot of care for the order of things and the way you build objects and all of that. And so I’m curious, what is the relationship between these two things are how you think about it.

Dairik 15:01
So for the tea practice, let’s say we practice how to hold a cup. First of all we would teach you how to hold it using not just your arms but with your whole body, which is basically moving your upper limbs like when you bow. It’s good to bow from the chest or from the heart, not just with your neck. We don’t say hello but you have to bow with your heart. We try to move the whole upper body because this is kind of a bow meaning bowing to wisdom. So you’re not bowing to the figure. You bow to it if you think you learned something or thank you for the wisdom. I bow to the wisdom so you’re not bowing to the person but to wisdom. It’s a gesture of respect. Likewise, when we take an object or a cup, the object was maybe created by someone, a ceramist, and I can’t make this. You know, and this requires a lot of knowledge, and the clay from the earth, which has been around for I don’t know how many millions of years. Probably this has so much more things that I cannot see. So we bow to that. In the same way we bow to someone who has taught me wisdom. Likewise, when we pick up an object, we’re actually bowing not just to the cup, but to the artisan, or to the material so when we pick up the cup, we have to bow with the whole upper body, or we say bow with the chest or from from your heart. And then you have to grab it from let’s say, the cup is clock, you have to pick it up from three o’clock, which is 90 degree angle. And it cannot be five o’clock or four o’clock or six o’clock, it has to be three o’clock, or else your teacher says do it again. So they have to pick it up in this very awkward, it’s very awkward, it’s very awkward manner. And you pick it up with your body, and then the left hand comes out and you kind of put it on your palm and then your thumb kind of extends so you’re kind of holding it with two hands so you feel the cup is part of your your gravity, I guess you know, it’s not outside, but it’s kind of inside. So, you feel you the cup is almost an extension of yourself, because it’s like you just gain another kilo of weight. So, when you do so, in such a rule, everything is detailed and when you go put it down again you have to hold a three o’clock and go down with the body. And they even tell you how your other hand has to be. Even if it’s not doing anything, they tell you it cannot be here it has to be here and it cannot be like this has to be this because he has to follow this certain circular posture because it’s like a circle. So the hand has to be here so and then also how you sit on the tatami you have to sit in The middle and the cup has to be in the frontal plane, it cannot be a little bit to the left, it cannot be a little bit to the right or a little bit to the front, that it has to be on this line. Exactly. So we even conferred upon the mass, which is like one centimeter. It’s exact to a centimeter basically. And that’s pretty precise, which you can do it on this floor, because you don’t know. But the time it’s measuring, you know exactly where you are in this grid system.

So it’s precise to the centimeter. And all the movements are so precise. Then everything is taken out of the cup. The cup is empty. Now I just have to hold a toothbrush or whatever, a toothbrush.

But that sensation of the practice is there, you know how you hold the cup. And how the cup is an extension of your body, but you’re holding a toothbrush, which you usually don’t really think about toothbrush in the morning. But that sensation of the or we say body memory, I don’t know, but are like that, that standard. Or we say it just becomes a part of how you you move. And how you relate your things with the object. Because it’s so strict order. But you’re holding just a toothbrush, which you just find at 711 for nothing, like I don’t know, maybe $2 or something. It’s insignificant. But you hold it like a tea utensil with respect. Because I don’t know, maybe this is actually well designed. And a lot of work has gone through it to reach this design. So why not bow to the toothbrush? But I think most people don’t. Because they think it’s insignificant object. But there are so much to learn from these insignificant things actually, like grass growing by the asphalt or just the shadows of tree or just kind of the feeling of light rain. And there is actually so much in these insignificant things. So So then, once you realize that, hey, maybe there’s something I can learn from this insignificant thing. That’s good. You caught the fish. So then you can forget the four. Then you can forget about everything that you learned about this whole day at three o’clock. Or how many grid? Tommy? You could forget all of that. Because that was just a fishing rod to catch the fish. I don’t know if that makes sense. Or if I answered the questions,

Mackenzie 23:53
I think so. I was thinking about maybe soon as this formless concept and then you build the things like form bowls. Yes, we build tea rooms to capture [Zen] within it. But as soon as you do it escapes.

Dairik 24:08
Yeah, so Exactly, exactly. So we tried to capture the formulas by using form. So that’s why we create temples and tea rooms. But what we’re trying to capture is the formulas so once we capture the formulas we can just throw out but then what’s happening mostly is, of course the form looks nice. And you want to keep a cup so that’s what the most people they can’t go beyond that. Because they they they’re they’re stuck with the form. And they find that more significant. I mean, that’s okay. I mean, that’s that’s fine. I mean, if they if they feel that that’s it. It’s Um, I mean, it’s just like fishing. I mean if if you find like, you have that sweet spot and you don’t want to explore that’s fine you know, because I think it’s up to the individual and but but again then if if you’re really at this my perspective if you’re very honest if you’re honest practitioner you start seeing this form this you know and you understand the form is actually I mean, it’s, it’s it doesn’t carry any wealth actually be because we have to know our form will become sand, or what do you call it? Like all form will disintegrate, I guess. I mean, I don’t see the same way but like, it’s, it’s not you know, it’s also temporary, I guess.

JC 26:22
So, just Just following up on this on a more practical perspective, there’s there’s books, one in particular to gain some popularity around forming habits. Atomic habits, I guess. And they say that you know, if you want to change a habit, you know, start by replacing it and in a sense, it’s you know, maybe learn the form and then if you do the form enough, then you will maybe touch the formulas and maybe change your current form it’s maybe not not great by trying different forms. I struggled with that idea because I felt like that’s the key should first stop doing the current form before you just replacing it, because your mental habit you just substituted one thing for another. Right? So they say oh, you can’t if you want to stop drinking coffee every morning because you feel like you’re addicted to coffee or serve drinking matcha or started drinking and I struggled with that idea because I thought well, you’re not changing that you’re so that’s true. Yeah, so you should first stop eating coffee and then if you want to try drinking matcha then you can but first you have to stop drinking coffee which I think is a bit related to this form of freefall form before the form this so I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that’s a good that I do think about like form and the formulas Yep. And the three call was recorded was making before as a habit Yeah. Is it practice Yeah.

Max 28:25
So is what you’re saying? Maybe we can treat attachment to form as the beginning habit that that non attachment can replace

JC 28:41
No. I think seeing the practice of a form as a dangerous substitute… because again, it’s like you just started drinking matcha instead of drinking coffee. But you still need the caffeine in the morning.

It’s still serving your addiction to caffeine. But to just like you know, think that you’re you don’t have to practitioner Yeah, that’s very interested in the cup and drink too much.

Dairik 29:29
Yeah, that’s interesting. I mean Yeah, so the way the teacher my teacher taught me is we first learned how to like walk with First learn how to bow basically, that’s the first thing we learned bow and walking. And then we learn how to pick up the objects like what? And it’s and it’s just kind of a different way of how we usually walk or how we usually say hi, it’s just kind of replacing it so that you start like, it’s like Wayman send us like you know, in martial arts. So, people who practice martial arts would say like us, which means similar to a konichiwa like Hello, but then you put that habit or kind of this form of seeing us or you put in this form that how you bow like let’s say, you are always you know, bowing like maybe like this so, then you are given like a new new but like like a standard like we say then that form first is very awkward, because, you know, it’s so different. But then your blood starts to feel that form and then it becomes yours because it becomes so natural, like it’s automatic. Like, you know, you see a flower and then you borrow flower starts being so automatic and then you receive a copy you start to give it give thanks or you start offering it to becomes an automatic you don’t think about it’s just like nature I think it’s just like also choreography or something they just think you know, think about it it’s just like

so I think the initial idea as you have to correct me correct me if I’m wrong, we say you know, like the right mind or like we say the right so there’s like several things about so it’s kind of just trying to give the right condition for that person. And that is again creating the structure, the right structure, right condition for that person to reach the formless.

So then, when the person reaches the formless, then again, the form isn’t needed. So then hopefully, they don’t have drink even coffee or matcha, like, you know, because they cut from a cylinder actually say, oh, I can even I don’t need coffee or matcha like, because I understand this theory. But I think initially you have to replace the coffee with the matcha. So that they are at least given the possibility of the right condition. And then when they reach the formless then they themselves says, oh, actually don’t need the soul. I don’t need to design anymore actually. Because I’m done with that face. Because I’ve understood like this so I can just come to the same sensation. Just it doesn’t have to be doesn’t for me, basically. So I don’t know if that makes sense.

On destroying Zen temples

JC 34:36
But I’m curious what this is, this is just like mental gymnastics. But if it was, so I know how you mentioned that the lineage the temples, the Zen temples, etc, are fake fraud of careers. If it was up to you, would you destroy them?

Dairik 35:04
Yeah, I would destroy them. Our party destroyed which actually happened several times. There was a monk in the 1800s, who went around with a beating stick, and he started like beating other monks. And he was like, crazy. Let’s you know like, check this guy out. He is a tough one. He is like a gorilla. It’s like champ, champ. Shanti. Like your icon for the gym? The gorilla. Oh, Shavon Shavon Shavon here real Chobani. So this is like, he’s a tough one, you know? So he was like, he went around destroying, like, monks, like, he will literally like, beat them. And he would go around with like, like a baseball bat. It’s like a basically a branch. And he would go from North Japan, South Japan, every word different than temples. And first, of course, they would do. Like, I mean, not like rap battle, but like a q&a, like Zen style dialogue battle. And then if, if the monk can answer it, he was just beat him up so much. And so this word spread that there was this crazy monk beating other monks, like some monks would not be at the temple, and say, like, I’m gone, like, you know. Because they say that, because he hears he’s coming to his town. So he will leave the temple. But when he comes back, he’s sitting at the gate waiting for him, and a bit. So there was a time when I think 18th century when all the Zen temples were a little bit like how do you say, this easy. We got the temple, like, we have to pay tax and like they were just very, very lazy. And he said, Okay, this got to be destroyed. So he’d run around, like just beating these guys up. So then it really like got their act together. And they’re like, oh, we should, like, do it. So if he saw, I think he said, he went around of Japan in just for three months, which are actually, like, real deal. Just three out of 1000s are like, can

Mackenzie 37:35
you think he was the real deal?

Dairik 37:37
Yeah, I think I think so. I think so. I mean, he, he he was appointed to like, one of the top monks to look at contracts. But then he said, No, I have other things to do. So he went around bidding. So so so he was told, like the the CEO, basically of the of this Zen compound, which is like, like, that’s what all monks want to be, you know, like the top of this temple. But he had other things to do. So he went out and started going…

Max 38:09
So do you not think that it’s important to have something to replace the temples? Or that some people are being served. Some people seem to go to the temples, and even if it’s kind of fake, they get ya meaning from it.

Dairik 38:24
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But it’s like a matcha latte. You know, I mean, it’s like a matcha latte, and then people find happiness in that. But let’s say 100 people doing martial art and maybe one is curious about oh, what is matcha? Maybe I’ll go to Japan, then that’s good

Max 38:44
But you’re saying you would destroy that though?

Dairik 38:48
Ah, yeah, yeah. So I think I would destroy that… I would. In this case, I think I would destroy the temple. I don’t know if I would destroy matcha latte because

JC 39:12
I think what you meant to say is that you would destroy… if they went to Japan, and the person serving the tea was not authentic. So if you drink a matcha latte, which doesn’t call itself Zen temple right?

Dairik 39:32
it doesn’t call itself a tea ceremony, so that’s okay.

JC 39:36
But if they’re like tea shop, or like the coffee shop down the street calls itself like authentic, [we should] destroy it and it doesn’t matter.

Mackenzie 39:52
How long do you think it’ll take for this to be destroyed? physical structures have a lot of social power.

Dairik 40:01
It’s very stable. So I think it’s very difficult and just you think it will just, it’s to institutionalize. So it’s very difficult.

JC 40:12
There’s some temples in China that were being burned, not in every burn would get kind of a new culture. Yeah, I think specifically of the Buddha, which is the origin, it’s been burned down several times. Yeah.

Max 40:27
Yeah. So would you be okay with the Zen, the prison temples in, in Kyoto being replaced with like, a shopping mall?

Dairik 40:41
Ah. I mean, that’d be shocking. I think initially, I’ll be like, damn, they built a shopping mall. So I think I’ll be shocked, to be honest. And of course, if I had to choose, like, between it becoming a shopping mall, like I want that to happen. Um, but I think what I want to destroy is this institution, institutionalized system. Um,

Max 41:17
that is maybe more of a barrier to the Dharma than actually actually teaching people the ways…

Dairik 41:25
Yeah, yeah. Because they’re just they’re acting monks. I think it would be so nice if they just wore normal clothes and just, you know, like, and just kind of, you know, not wear the robes. And just

JC 41:47
so this follows up to the conversation, or to the reading that we did together. And the conversation of pointing out that people are wrong. The guy forgot his name to one. Yeah. And then he just shut up. So what’s what’s the right balance of, you know? Sure, like other gardens or for aesthetic construction? Was people studying or tea culture? Do just designing gardens around you? And then, if someone is curious, maybe they’ll find your garden. So you just take care of your garden.

But you don’t control the outside gardens. So what do you think is the right balance between or how do you think about the difference between just yeah, there’s just people doing matcha lattes and calling it a tea ceremony next to me but I just focus on doing an authentic tea ceremony and if someone comes by and then the word will spread or something Yep. And they can do whatever they want. I’m just focused on my myself versus like, oh, I have to go stop this thing because it’s spreading bullshit.

Which which also transcribes I think, like they can get to one level deeper would be on judgment to human beings. So when we interface a human, or meet human sometimes we form judgments. I don’t really see the fault has to be like the more micro scale of that behavior.

Dairik 43:54
I see myself contradicting here. Because on one hand, I would go around and say that’s not if I took the example of tea ceremony, I would say like, that’s not tea ceremony. I would want to go up to them and say, Can you guys stop doing this because you’re like, damaging the like, because some people we had a lot of visitors in Kyoto. And you know, they came to experience tea ceremony because maybe they love drinking matcha and they’re taken to this tea ceremony. And they’re given like, sweets which are so like bad and like cheap and it’s for like, like something like we would never eat in the tea room for example. And this like, very very like I don’t know, like basically it’s a it’s a job, you know, there are like part timers who can whisk a little bit of tea. And they’re taught how to do so. So it’s no different than basically like, I mean, it’s just the experience business it because tea room, there should be a tea person. But that is just the tea room by it’s like, rented. So actually, there is no tea person there and it’s just been rented out space. And it’s not taking care of. But anyways, I one time I went to such place because I was just curious where all the tourists go. And they pay like 20 bucks, and they get this experience as like 45 minute things. And they’re given this like, really, really bad sweets and really, really bad tea. And then they see this is the tea as like, really shitty tea room. But then then for the tourists, it’s like, yeah, and then there’s a girl and Kimoto. But there’s nothing to compare with, because it’s the first experience they haven’t seen. Wow, this is tea ceremony. And I’m like, No, it’s not.

Mackenzie 46:22
Are you standing around saying, “No, it’s not”.

Dairik 46:24
Like next thing Oh, like, I read it to like, write everything. You undercover? Yeah, I just kind of went as if with a friend. And I just didn’t say anything. I’m just sitting there. I’m just thinking. What is so bad? Like? Why doesn’t the city do anything about it? Yeah, maybe legally. Um, but then I just then I thought to myself, maybe we also have a responsibility on our side. Because we’re not promoting it as much. Because if we made a homepage and promoted well, so people came to this place instead of that touristic place then. But then maybe we aren’t doing as much, you know, we’re just kind of this very passive.

So I thought, like, oh, maybe then I should start something. But then another idea was like, maybe not compete, but maybe I should make them franchise. And be like, Hey, guys, like, I want to improve your like, be a consultant and be like, I want to improve your tea ceremony. So why don’t you come to like, a three day Crash Course and mighty place. And I’ll like teach you guys. You know, like Zen meditation and whatever. That was another option. And franchise and make improve, because they already built up something.

So there’s a part of me who is judging and want to correct. But there is a part of me saying I should just focus on my students. Because if I get one, it’s enough than trying to get like hundreds of people to because that’s not my task, maybe and I cannot serve food and for hundreds of people, but my limit this maybe guess, at a time and not 50 per day. So I’m still very at that point, to be honest, I don’t know if there’s two sides of me, well, who wants to correct and destroy, and like franchise or whatever. But there’s a part of me which I say if I analyze my manpower, my economics and my time and my energy to put into just my students who will maybe then find another student, and then eventually, one student will be two, two will be four for the eight. You know, and eventually it will curve exponential. So it’s like a long term investment in that sense. So I think that’s the point I met and then it happened. So now jcsu E, so that’s to something new that can be called for think that’s now finally I’m seeing that kind of the potential in that So in that time, I think I won’t be around. But that’s okay. Because like

JC 50:11
so in Silicon Valley, there’s something called the innovators dilemma. So you either improve something by like 10% at a time, and you try to take something that exists and improve it, or you just start from scratch. And I think typically everything that was a big breakthrough has been mostly start from scratch.

Max 50:39
The dilemma though is that the big companies that try to do the 10% innovation, if they try to start from scratch, they end up cannibalizing themselves — cutting out their own sales. So they just can’t, even though they see it coming. Yeah. So are you saying that maybe if you don’t try to start from scratch, you can become too stuck [in your ways]? What would the 10% improvement be? Would it be helping the other fake tea places? Or your students?

JC 51:16
Oh, no, the Tea places places I suck if I become a consultant will tell them, Hey, by the tea from this place, yeah.

Max 51:25
So teaching your students is could be a way of escaping innovators dilemma.

JC 51:31
Yeah, because it’s a blank page, right? You do whatever you want. But you have like this shitty essay that you have to keep rewriting and revising. you rewrite the sentence. But all like all this doesn’t flow, I have to scrap it. But

On the purpose of teaching

Max 51:46
here’s another interesting tension/question that I have. Are you teaching students to have more students and to spread your word? Or is there some aspect also of teaching is kind of like meditation? You just do it? Because people are there and it feels right. And maybe it’s good for nothing?

Dairik 52:23
I think because this is really limiting to my personal experience of me as a student. Because initially, I came to my teacher just out of curiosity, you know, because I didn’t know anything about anything. And what my teacher was saying sounded a little bit interesting. And like, oh, this could be of some exploration. And at that time, I didn’t think I will be a teacher, you know.

Like, I just came to his lessons and you know, we would like have tea and then have conversations like this, I would just kind of ask questions. And I had no intention of continuing as I would just finish doing maybe for one year and, and that maybe after I graduated from university, maybe I’ll stop doing tea. And I think she had no expectations as well. Like, I mean, he was teaching me with his full heart as he would teach any students and I think he didn’t tell me you should be a teacher. He actually tell told me don’t teach because you don’t know about anything. So if you restrict him, even if some of my friends who I started making tea at my apartment, and they were like, teach me and I want to teach them but then my teacher would say like, don’t teach was your mislead them? So I kept up to his words until actually very recent that he said, Oh, yeah, maybe now you can actually teach teach the basics. That’s fine.

So I think, I don’t teach because I want to make people feel like meditative or happy. But I’m teach because I’m actually doing it anyways. Like I’m in my tea room. Meditating, doing my everyday scene, like doing flowers, like making food. So I’m doing it anyways. Like I’m up 630 I’m like, doing it anyways. So When a student comes in, I say, oh, let’s do it together. Because I’m doing it anyways. It’s not like an extra job for me. So in that sense even if I make food for you guys, it’s not like I’m going to eat anyway. So like, let’s eat together.

So it’s not like I’m trying to make you feel meditative or happy. I just teach you how I eat. And then we can share this experience. Um, and then I’m not teaching because I want JC eventually to teach someone. If he does, that’s cool. That’s okay. But I think I find interests how they will take this and apply it to their life or work or in saline. She’s applying it to her heart. That’s cool. And that’s more exciting. Because then I can see new leaves forming from this branch. And that’s something I didn’t even think about how it could turn out. Choices include any final regards Yeah. Another good day. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you.